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AnnRKey Says:
Nov 29, 2008 - DNA: How does a religious person know "this earthly life is only a small episode in immortality of my soul."?"We have two rational choices: either to commit suicide or to find ways to enjoy our existence."To be or not to be, that is the question. . .To sleep, perchance to dream. Ay, there's the rub,For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,. . .Hamlet: act three, scene one
AnnRKey Says:
Nov 29, 2008 - DNA: Your statement "If God chose to speak with us directly we would not have a free will." is not falsifiable. Moreover, I am sorry to say, it sounds ludicrous. Is that from the Bible or what?
junker21 Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - DNA, 1. romania's communist constitution was far from perfect; 2. Ceausescu did not commit any crime in the name of atheism. he was a proletarian undereducated megalomaniac dictator, he had other reasons for his hideous crimes. 3. well theoretically speaking there is clear separation of church and state in the USA, in practice though...just look at the last 8 yrs..
DNAPROTEINN Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - junker: 1. My point is that constitution is human made document and it cannot replace tenets of the religious ethics. 2. Separation of church and state in the USA is not a theory but a reality. Last 8 years did not change anything in this separation.
DNAPROTEINN Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - ARK: "How does a religious person know "this earthly life is only a small episode in immortality of my soul."?" - by process of exclussion of other possibilities. As people say: This life is a journey, not a destination.Thank you for Hamlet's quotation. I did not realize its relevance to the context. You are great!
DNAPROTEINN Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - ARK: 1. "Not? falsifiable?" ludicrous? I was sure you knew this concept. Its not mine. God gave us a free will in order to elevate us and to make from us our own autonomous persons. Eric Fromm's: You shall be as Gods - is about it. It might be from biblical prophets - I should look it up.
DNAPROTEINN Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - In order for us to have a truly free will, God "hides His face" ("hester panim" in Jewish theology). In Deuteronomy 31:17 God says: I will hide my face from them. God watches us, and allows to us make our own right and wrong decisions.
junker21 Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - DNA, 1. laws AND religious dogmas are both human made. the difference is that state laws are changed and improved to suit the constantly evolving society, while religions want you to live according to strict, archaic, misogynistic and homophobic social values. as for 2. ..well, just watch some of bill maher's shows, he makes great points ;)
AnnRKey Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - I don't understand. Did you exclude the other possibilities by fiat? People say lots of things that may or may not be true. For example: Life is a journey that ends in death.You're welcome. And you're too kind.
AnnRKey Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - Without question not falsifiable. Just to be clear, to be falsifiable there needs to be an observation I can make or an experiment I can perform to show it is false. As for it being ludicrous, that is merely my opinion. I may have heard the concept before, but it was just as unfalsifiable then as it is now. The "fact" that "God gave us free will" is true if there is a God. Even if there is a God, the statement "we wouldn't have free will if God spoke directly to us" is not necessarily true.
AnnRKey Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - DNA: Why does the God of the Bible "hide his face" from some while others he does not? Did the alleged prophets not have free will?
DNAPROTEINN Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - ARK: Life a big "cafeteria" of choices. I make my choice and I mind my own business. You hou made another choice - OK, be my guest. I am for tolerance.Somebody choose to think that death is the final destination is free to think so, but on the basis of the entire Weltanschaung I do not support this view. In the first place I believe in the existence of our souls nth years before we were born. Life is existence between two eternities: before and after our birth.
AnnRKey Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - DNA: True, we all can believe what we want. As Jefferson put it: But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. That being said, the preponderance of evidence suggests that when we die there is nothing. I am merely asking for evidence that supports the belief of life after (or before) death. What can you provide?
SemanticCentrifuge Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - The argument that our universe is "fine tuned" for humans beings is ridiculous. If the circumstances for human beings were not ideal for human beings to arrise then something else would've appeared. This something else would've not been human but they would've certainly believed that the universe was "fine tuned" for them. I just cant understand why a natural empathy for your fellow human beings cant serve as a person's moral compass?
DNAPROTEINN Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - ark: your evidences tell you of mortality. I disagree, but cannot prove it as I'm still alive.My indirect prove of immortality of the soul is based on the common mind-boggling revolutionary development of humans after birth. As a result we attain a cornucopia of universal a priori traits. Conclusion: We bring this from the previous experience of our immortal soul.
DNAPROTEINN Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - SC: 1.Our Universe is "fine tuned" - nothing ridiculous. The leading scientists, not clerics tell this. Among known to us millions of stars no life was found. But even if it will this changes nothing. God might create more than one livable planet.2. "Natural empathy" is far from an universal value. Some people might have it, but asubstantial number of them will not know what you are talking about.
SemanticCentrifuge Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - I don't think that any legitimate scientist has stated that this planet is "fine tuned" for humans. That's pretty much the whole argument between science and the creationism/ID people. Stated The planet/universe being "fine tuned" implies a designer. If any legit scientist stated that they would be subverting their own argument. Natural empathy is far from a universal value I agree but how well has telling people they will go to hell if they act badly worked?
AnnRKey Says:
Nov 30, 2008 - dna: I am of the opinion that you might as well have said: I cannot prove my indirect mind-boggling after birth cornucopia a priori immortal soul.If you have no evidence, just say you have no evidence and we can move on. Between the years of 1990 and 2001, on average, I went to 1 funeral per year. Among them were a college professor of mine and friend of the family, two grandparents in law and a sister in law. I have not heard from any of the deceased. I do hope they are in paradise.
DNAPROTEINN Says:
Dec 1, 2008 - ARK: did not I say "... cannot prove it as I'm still alive". Then why patronize?
AnnRKey Says:
Dec 1, 2008 - DNA: Apologies for seeming patronizing, but I have stated I am looking for evidence, not what you seem to have pulled out of thin air.
DNAPROTEINN Says:
Dec 1, 2008 - ARK: C'mmon, you are not so naive to assume that such evidence can exist. Clearly, I was implying we might know of God by His attributes.
AnnRKey Says:
Dec 1, 2008 - DNA, I don't assume such evidence exists. From the way the "conversation" was going, I thought you were going to present what you thought was evidence. DNA: "your evidences tell you of mortality. I disagree. . ."
DNAPROTEINN Says:
Dec 1, 2008 - ARK: Thank you.
AnnRKey Says:
Dec 2, 2008 - DNA: You're welcome. Why are you thanking me?
DNAPROTEINN Says:
Nov 29, 2008 - ARK: If God chose to speak with us directly we would not have a free will. Thus Godi hides His face.Religious thinkers never were running away from issues of presence of Evil in the world. There are numerous theories on this subject. But - as I said - for the atheists is left additionally to explanation of Evil, to explain the rest in the world that surround them.